The Innovative Agency
The Innovative Agency

Episode · 4 months ago

134. Values, Not Verticals: Growing & Positioning Your Agency

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Many agencies choose a vertical and use that to define who they are, what they believe in, and how they are positioned in the marketplace.

But what if you chose to define your agency based on your core philosophy? How would that affect your services, your positioning, and your recruiting practices?

Sue Kruskopf, CEO at KC Truth, joins me to share how her agency has taken the core belief of truth and incorporated it into every aspect of the business.

We discuss:

- Positioning based on a belief system

- Translating a core belief into systems and processes

- How a core philosophy can influence the physical space and recruitment

To hear more from Innovative Agency owners, listen to The Innovative Agency podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on our website.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for The Innovative Agency in your favorite podcast player.

The Innovative Agency is a podcast designedto help marketing agency leaders answer the question what's next in their industry. Ifyou're looking for actionable ideas about how to operate and grow innovative agencies, you'vecome to the right place. Let's get into the show. I welcome backto innovative agency. Excited to be back with you today and excited about ourconversation topic, which is really kind of, I don't want to call it backto the futures, to what would you call it? It's sort oflike it's getting back to a basic in terms of growing and position your agency. Yeah, well, I think one of the things that we always tellour clients if we can't build our agency brand, how can we build someoneelse's brand? So we, from the beginning, have found something that reallyresonated with us in our clients, and we haven't strayed from that in thirty, thirty some years. It's still at the core of what we do.We haven't tried to reinvent ourselves. We do in terms of our tactics,because obviously we always have to be ahead of the curve in terms of gettingmessages out to people through relevant media and all that and so we stay aheadof the curve that way. But it's still all founded on the principle oftruths and that's what we've always been and it's no surprise. In advertising,like anything, truth is stranger than fiction a lot of times. So,so the agency is Casey Truth. You're in Minneapolis and you found in theagency thirty years ago. Well, yeah, back in one thousand nine hundred andeighty eight, I was a frustrated art director at a big agency inMinneapolis that just couldn't get a good idea out the door. If you know, it just isn't possible to get work out of the agency. I feltthat was worthy. That was we sent. People used to say it was alot of great mind surrounded by a lad shield, that it was justvery frustrating. And so you know,...

...you're young and stupid at like,you know, twenty eight years old, and go we can do better thanthis. So my copywriter and I quit and decided we weren't making any money, so we might as well make no money doing something else. So wefreelanced and little by little, you know, and nothing teaches you more about businessthan starting with nothing, you know. So yeah, well, I kindof kind of feel like this is a little bit of back to thefuture in terms of the theme of our conversation, because I you know,I spent a lot of time talking to agency owners and I spend quite abit of time interviewing agency owners and leaders for the show and you know,we talked about artificial intelligence, we talked about data and privacy regulations and allthe things you need to stay on top of. Yeah, but the numberone thing that agency owners and leaders are always the most concerned about and whatwe get the most questions about it at the law firm is related to businessdevelopment and marketing and putting yourself out there and a strong brand is it's yourcurrency and trade as a yeah, and I think you know if these forgetthat a lot of times. Yeah, I mean you know agencies and lawfirms are somewhat similar and that it's a sort of service business and usually it'sa bunch of names, you know, on the door, and advertising iscertainly taken an attack towards not doing that so much. We certainly have somevery creative agency names out there these days. Of that weren't around, and youknow that we're in around a long time ago but I still think atthe core you have to stand for something and stand behind and so we've reallymade truth are everything, from our url to our truth process to the bardownstairs that's called the truth bar, So everything we do. So we're veryvisible on a street to you know, when you see truth members only,you know it's a it's just a good moniker for how much we're willing tostand for that, you know, and that it's in everything we do andit's also our culture. I mean it's very much where a nobs place.I mean it's everybody has to have an...

...opinion. There's no bullshit and youknow, but that's just the way we operate. To is just to bereal people and not use business jargon that I'm just so tired of it.I'll trying to figure out what everybody's talking about with acronyms and swim lanes andall that stuff. You know, just get back to basics. You know, there's something about a great would they do get granular about this topic duringthe side together talk about this is started. Yeah, you know, and alot of agencies that develop their positioning around a client vertical. We've actuallywe've done it with my firm too. I know a lot of agencies thathave built their positioning around being competent and one particular discipline, but what yousee less of, and why I'm so intrigued about this, is an agencythat positions itself based upon its belief system or it's culture. And that seemsto me like exactly what you're talking about. Is taking this concept of truth andyou've applied it internally to how you all relate to each other. Ihave to imagine that it affects the way you interact with your clients and howyou have put yourselves out there to get new business. But what I'd loveto know is how did you decide to cement the business around this core principle? What what over the bag and self? From Day One, I just realizedit a big agency, that politics and all the stuff just gets inthe way of great ideas and just great work, and the more you canwhittle all this stuff away and get down to the truth of something, thesimpler. It's always easy to make things complex. It's harder to make thingssimple, and so keeping things simple and under standable and not talking over clientsheads is always something that I wanted to do because so much I felt thebig agency world is, you know, the agencies trying to look smarter thanthe client and try to use big words and you know, and you justneed to relate to people in a one on one level and I think that'svery honest and truthful and you develop stronger...

...relationships that way in anything. Andthen I think the second part of that is just and it's nothing. It'shappened in advertising before. I mean it's not like truth is like a bigidea. I mean, we own it as who we are, but it'sI mean there's been great other agencies that have always tried to get at acore of what the brand is or what the company is about, because,you know, the bigger the company gets, some more they don't know who theystand for and you have to kind of go back to their roots andfigure out what is that one thing that really resonates and is relevant every totheir core audiences. So it's kind of that whole combination that things. Itjust seemed to make a lot of sense. I mean, any of my friendsor colleagues would say, you know, Suez, Nobias and you know alot of times it's that males also means telling your clients something they don'twant to hear, I mean, you know, and having to deliver themessage to go you know what, the baby is ugly and you got tofigure this part of it out. Or I'm just but we're not doing ourjob if we don't, if we don't if we're not honest and you knowand just trying to make them more successful because of their successful, then willbe successful. So it's kind of basic principles, you know. It's justkind of what your mom Watcha I don't know just is well, it's itdoes sound like that. I mean on the face of it, yeah,I agree with you, but it's one thing for it to sound very simpleand you, you know, you explain it very eloquently because it's obviously you'rea core belief of yours and how you've created and built the firm, butit's different to take to have that sort of core belief and to actually translateit into the systems, in the processes and and the marketing for Your Business. I mean you've fold it through just about everything the agency does, andso talk a little bit about that journey. Well, sure, one of thethings that we always found is if we really get in and do theresearch and all that, that we want to find out about a client's companyor a brand. It's it's really what...

...are the truths about the brand itself? And a lot of times on that we rely on our clients to theyknow, they know the brand better than anybody. I mean they do.They've lived with it for a while, they've worked at it every day.They know a lot about that. Then the category. What are the truthsin the category? What do we know? And really starting, I mean nosurprise, marketing one one, let's look at the competition, but lettingUS bring in and outside of you of how we view it as a consumer, you know, because sometimes that's different than what an agency might see.And then, lastly, the most importantly, as we say, really finding thetruth about the target audiences, because they're the ones with the money.So we got to figure out what's the truth. So we got to figureout what's going to make them tick. And then, putting all that together, we develop the one, you know, core truth about that company. That'sone sentence, no surprise. Simpler is better, and that's what weown. And then we write a ethos and in a you know, aroundthat one simple truth, so the client gets, you know, what webelieve as a personality profile and that kind of thing on the company, howit sounds, how it talks, and that has turned into actually one ofour biggest things is in the truth. Well, I should at the truthbars a whole other story, but I know if I should tell you thatfirst. Well, I can tell you that story quickly so because it's somethings we always said. The other thing about the agency is the best meetingsoften happen after the meeting. Like you get down with a meeting in theconference room and we go out to the kitchen and we'd have a glass ofwine or a bear and talk and all of a sudden we would go like, why don't you talk about that in the meeting? Why didn't we hearabout that? You know. So we always felt like that was such awhen people felt relaxed and could just talk openly. was so great. Sothere was an empty space downstairs and the first flour of our building and thecorner all windows. It hadn't been, hadn't been, nobody been in thereand thirty years and we just took it over and gutted the whole thing andit's this is an old s building, but an old English library from thes out at a Warehouse d west to town and had the architects put in. It looks like a s bar downstairs, but it's one of this story.It's the truth bar. So outside...

...you just as truth members, onlyyou can only get in through an interior door that only our clients and ourcolleagues know about. So that's where net we now hold truth workshops. Soall those sessions that we held before we now hold in the truth bar.The truth workshops are in the truth bar and we have a wall behind thebar that has members and we have all the wine glasses with their names onit, you know, and who are, who our clients are, because youknow, from the old days humant s and s Fallon when Minneapolis didat best, like all their clients had letter jackets, like that was athing, like everybody had loved letter jackets with an agency's name on it,like they all want to be part of the club, you know, andthat was a big deal back at the time. So it's kind of Nicefor our clients to come in because they see their shelf and they have theirwine glasses with their name on it and clients like to feel like they're importantand we feel like we're team and we're part of the part of the club, and so it's just been a really great place to hold work, daylongworkshops and our clients use it for off sites and all that too. Soit's just a you know, it's not just because we have a bar becausewe'd like to drink, it's because, you know what I mean, isit's just it just is. Is it disrupting a conference room? Like,why do you need another conference room? Let's just do something where people reallywant to hang out? You know, not, you're not just you know. So it's been really it's gotten a lot of press and it's been verysuccessful for us. One of the things agencies are the best that are increating environments or experience races that yet their clients or their guests or whomever tothink differently. Right, just see things from a new perspective or new vantagepoint, physically from a new vantage point. So I love that story. Yeah, it's going to come and have a drink there one of these days. Well, whenever you're in Minneapolis. You got it. No, it'sgreat. It's great and people walk around the outside. They think it's abar you can get into, but you can't because it's all windows. Sopeople keep looking for the entrance and they can't find it. So it's kindof restricting. I want. I know. It's, like I said, eitherthat either, I mean you never...

...know when you drink. Either tellthe truth or you don't. I don't know, it's could go either way. Different right exactly is that? So do most of your clients, whenthey come to you, are they looking forward this sort of the truth basedapproach to finding out what their core is, or or is it something that it'ssort of your your gateway? You want to work with our agency.This is yeah, it says we expect you to go through yeah, wedo. We do them in different degrees, but it is important because what Ithings happening in a lot of big companies now is that, like,especially with Covid when people are getting more and more separated from seeing their coworkers and watercolor or water cooler talk and all that is, you know,the hardest part about selling, you know, a marketing campaign, into a companyis the fact that people all do different things. Sales does different thingsthan research and research does different things than operations. And so what we tryto do in the truth workshops, in the truth bar is we get allthe stakeholders from all different disciplines within an agency, the ones that I havethe loudest voice, and we get them all in a room for the dayand we get them to start talking about what their truths are in there,what they each think about the brand, the category that the audience, becausea lot of them don't know really what marketing does, or you know,they don't really, they just know that sometimes marketing just shows up those here'sour campaign for this year, here's what we're doing, and they don't feela part of it. So when everybody's in a room and we the roomscovered with paper and writing everything down and and getting people's opinions about things,and then at the end of the day they have to vote on the thingsthat they think are most important for their company, you know, the toppriorities of what they think. And what happens during the course of the dayis the guy that comes in from engineering or a product development is going tofall on a spear for this thing and here's what he thinks after he's heardeverybody else talk. Then he kind of...

...isn't quite so, you know,he's not quite so adamant about what he initially thought because he's hearing all sidesof it. It's great for us because we learn so much about the companyat the time and we come back and provide our insights. But the bestpart is when we come back with a recommendation from a strategics and so orwhatever it may be, media, whatever may be. They all feel there'sthey all feel like they've been a part of it. So it's much easierfor everybody to get behind it, you know, because everybody feels they've beenheard, there's that they're willing to get behind and push it through more andwe in the internal buying in for anything in a big company is always oneof the biggest challenges is to get somebody behind it. So some of ourclients they call it therapy. You know, it's like therapy for their company,but it is really true because it unites everybody, it aligns people andwe do a lot of work, you know, going into it with inputsand outputs to I mean we do a lot of research, you know,if we need to up front or on the back end, we go wegot to go talk to some more customers, whatever it may be, but itreally it's it really works just align everybody. So so honestly, peoplego, I want to do that, we need to do that. Yeah, and so, and that lays the foundation for, you know, whateveror whatever project we're working on. So I mean having a North Star asan agency, I mean it defined your culture to finds the way that youapproach a client business problem to you. Ever ever encountered a client situation wherethey just don't want to turn those stones over? We've had it. Wehad one company where the CEO thought everybody in the company knew that what theywere selling was a software solution and the people in the company thought they wereselling basically as a custom IPAD. I can't remember the exact thing, butit was like you just saw the light bulbs go off like wait, whatare you talking about? I thought we were selling this, and the seagoes the CEOS it, no, you...

...guys know we're doing this, youknow, and all of a sudden it was like Whoa. It was likeplanes crossing over each other and it was like Whoa, this is weird.Like the CEO things the companies. One thing in the company thinks. Thepeople in the company think it's something else, and once they heard what the CEOhad to say, some of the people quit because they realize that,you know, what they thought they were signing up for wasn't really the waythe company was going. So that was there. We had some weird momentslike that, you know. But yeah, I mean, but that's but that'sthat. You know, it's not often you get a CEO, andI mean a lot of times it's not the CEO to other people, butyou know, they have to be pretty confident to be in a room witha bunch of people and be able to be as honest as everybody else,you know, like what's what's not good about the company? What are youknow, I'm just getting people to understand, like what are the strengths? Whatare the weaknesses, you know, in brand or whatever it may be, you know. So, yeah, there's a lot of truth that comesout that's really interesting at times. You know, what would your advice beto an agency owner are later listening to this, who feels very strongly abouttheir own our start, it could be whatever. Could be sustainability, itcould be it could be a human rights clause. It could be, justname it. But what would your advice be to them when they encounter aclient who clearly doesn't either takes an action that's contrary to sort of that corephilosophy and our just doesn't want to get on that train. And Yeah,I don't know. I think I think you either got to stick to itand own it or not. I mean, I think there are Clon I thinkthere are agencies that are smart to go down, like you said,one vertical like healthcare or something like that. It's just not my cup of teambecause I like I think I get bored too easily. You know,like to learn a lot about a lot of different things. But I thinkwhatever that thing is, whether it's a value or whatever it may be,you really got to own it and stick to it and everything you do.And that's not easy. You know, you got to make some sacrifices,but you got to be true to who...

...you are too, and I don'tknow how many people are comfortable with that. You know, I mean because it'seasier kindamorph and do other things. And you know, you kind tomake tough decisions either about talent or about client relationships that didn't align sort ofwhat you know. That really hasn't been an issue with us. I thinkif people come here, I still go back to you know, we're stillpitching at the beginning. You know, you're pitching for a piece of businessand we kind of lay it out there. Either going to like this or you'renot, you know, I mean that's kind of it. So youhave to have somebody that that is going to be comfortable to be in.You know that that chemistry that we have with our clients. Or not they'regoing to be comfortable or not in choose a space or based on that ornot. It's not something that they want to do, but the clients thathave done it has it's really been a great thing for their business and becauseit builds internal alignment and it just gives them something to really rally behind,you know, in terms of the work that we eventually do that comes outof it. So you know, right, as a result of all the changewe've seen over the last year and am yeah, what are you seeingfrom your clients right now in terms of how their priorities have shifted and howtheir truth, you know, has shifted, either in the way they want toserve their customers or and the goals they want to achieve. What aresome of the big ships? You've noticed? What I you know, it's beeninteresting because, you know, even during the Covid we had to dosome truth workshops virtually, but there were fewer and farther between, because itwas just really hard to do. I mean just you know. I meanin some ways it was easy because you could get everybody on a screen,but other times it wasn't because one of the things in a workshops you canreally read people's body language and see what they're doing and all that. Andso I think, you know, I think they're experiencing the same thing thatthat we all are. I mean everybody's still trying to figure their way throughthis thing and see how it really is affecting their you know, their theircustomers and they're I don't know, and...

...their internal culture. I wish Ihad a specific example for you, but our clients are so some of themare so big. You know, we all we know is one business unitwithin like a cargill or a three M or whatever. I mean, it'sit's hard to see big corporate shifts. But you know, I think thatthe one thing that never changes is understanding what's relevant to their customer and thenfiguring out what the next thing is going to be to engage them. Youknow, that's still and you know, even though we're you know, we'reworking virtually and doing all that, I mean you still got to figure outhow you're going to sell a product to get people to buy it or aservice. You know, it just doesn't. It doesn't. That doesn't trige,I think, coming to you for Change Management Help in terms of theway readjust our messaging the way. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, well, wasn't. Matter of fact, one of our clients, you know, is threem with some manufacturing company here. Actually, they're known for doing that, and ninety five at masks, which is was one division of them, but they're huge global company, and one of the products that we workwith is a is a privacy filter, and it's something you put over acomputer, like on an airplane or whatever. You don't want anybody see what you'reworking on. Right, and we were, we were getting ready todo a big Tokyo commuter train campaign rate when covid hit. I mean thatwas a huge shift for us because, like we literally had all the thewhole plan figured out for Tokyo to for commuter trains, and all of asudden I'll travel stopped. And so now we had to figure out what's therelevance of this product, you know, at home and then eventually where peopleare at working now, which is in coffee shops or wherever they may go. So we had to just, you know, completely change and and and, you know, and switch to a completely different way of looking at things. And then we had to we could, we couldn't shoot in people's houses becauseof covid like. We did some work at home campaigns around that andI haven't thought teenagers would probably really like...

...that product. At that time,privacy felt think, let's just forget business travelers, let's just go after teenagers, right. But then, you know, we couldn't. But we couldn't dothat. But we had to shift them, you know, and Ithink everybody that went through, you know, agencies that went through this, ifyou had clients that had those types of product that we're really you know, all of a sudden there wasn't going to be necessary for business travel anymore. Man, you know, you got a really you gotta move quickly tofigure out what it's going to be. So, yeah, you'll trying tofigure that one out, because business travel is not bouncing back as quickly asit is. But now we're finding that people are hoteling, like, peoplein offices are working more openly, you know, and because people that wewere sitting right next to each other, now they're spacing out more. Sonow we're looking at it from that standpoint, like what word does it go now? Maybe it goes into hoteling and hot spots and that kind of stuff. So it's just, you know, it's just you always got to keepevolving, you know, no matter what. That's true. I mean nothing daysthe same. I think one of the most challenging but also one ofthe most in bigerating things about your business, right, about your right? Oh, yeah, for sure, and I mean that's that's yeah, Imean, I that's what I like. I mean, I'm probably the oldestperson in advertising right now, but that's what case me going. I thoughtI'd be retired when I was like, Oh, I'm I'm going to bedone with this one. I'm fifty five for sure, but I wouldn't likeit. I enjoy what I do too much and there's always there's always somethingnew to new and new to find out, New People to meet and I'm justa curious person. So it's a good thing for that. You know, I hope I seriously done with the onnest person advertising. So let's well, I don't know, at least some woman. I don't know, Idon't know, I don't know. It's like, man, I can't believehow long I've been around, but it's great. I feel lucky. It'syou know, it is, I will admit, unique to have a womanown agency, your tenement founded, I'm that run agencies now. But yeah, yeah, found the agency. You know, like a lot of themare coming, you know, and more...

...than ever now because people, youknow, it's we've been discriminated against, I mean for so many years.I mean my agency that I worked for, I just looked one day and wentwow, there's nobody here. There's no women here over like forty andand there's certainly isn't any in the creative department, which were I was.I go I better get my stuff figured out here, because I don't thinkthis is a long term career with kids and stuff like that. You know, that's when I was like thirty years old. But but really that waswhat it was like. A just you just looked Arono, it's all guysand there's not a lot of women, and the ones that they quit becausethey couldn't work in an agency and have kids. And I thought I'm notdoing that, you know, and luckily, by the time I set the goalwith my kids were six in eight. And this was way before the Internet, because they're twenty six and twenty three, twenty two, now twentyfour, and I be home every day after school, you know, andI said I'm going to do it, even though there was no internet,and I did it. And so from day one I've always stood for worklife balance too, because that's the difference, because when a woman starts an agency, way back when, that was nobody was doing work life balance likewhat you know. I mean, how can I have kids and not beat home after school? I mean that's just weird. So anyway, soI just you know, that was back in the s. You know,that just wasn't a thing. You know, I wasn't. People were working weekends, nights. I mean it was like we don't come in Saturday don'tbother coming in Sunday. I mean I was just like not doing that anymore. So I anyway, I think that back then it was probably much moreprogressive thinking, you know, back in the day. Yeah, because,well, I did. It feels to me like you taking your truth andextended it to all prners of the agency and probably a packs the way yourecruit for talent to right, which is a yeah button's you right now foragency. So you find it that gives you an edge and recruit. Yeah, it certainly it did up until covid because people knew, like people likethat work here will go. No, sue is not to be us.I mean there is a work life balance here. I mean people have theirlives and I go, because where do you get your where do you getyour creative thinking, if you don't have a personal life? You know,I mean you have to have time think.

But I have to say that's hardernow, and all honesty, just because well, now everybody's working fromhome and you know, and they have more freedom and they can be homewith their kids and all that sort of thing. So, you know,it's probably less of a defining thing now just because of the way the worldworks, but but it's still, you know, it's at the core ofwho we are. But I think it's now there's just, you know,everybody can do what they want. I mean, I think the agencies,that the companies. I do know one agency that everybody made, everybody getback to work last June and I just thought, well, I wonder howthat's going to work out. You know right. I haven't talked to thatagency since then, but I gotta believe if they haven't turned to be flexible, there's probably a lot of people that left at that point, you know. So I don't know, I mean you know it. Yes, everybodyis moble and everybody's working with less maybe physical interaction, but as the leaderand owner of the business, you're still holding them accountable, right. Oh, yeah, yeah, you still still look at metrics, you're still communicatingwith them. So I think, I think it's just a new day interms of how we hold our team members accountable and and evaluate progress versus youcan see it more tangibly when everybody's in the same physical space, but it'sharder to see. But stay to think be more creative in terms of theways that you create opportunities to check in. Yeah, yeah, right, right, yeah, and I mean that's just yeah, I mean that's whatyou got to do. And we still are on Tuesdays and Thursday, asyou know, if you want to be in. I mean, because wereally do like when people just work down in the bar and it's like workingin a coffee shop. I mean, people like to be around each other. If you hire people that like to be with each other, then theygot a good thing going on. You know. Well, this has beena great conversation. I love an example of an agency that's taken sort ofits core philosophy and not only incorporated into the way to reverse its services,by the way it recruits talent, the way it expresses itself in its physicalspace and just very cool. R and,...

...you know, for any of youare listening or thinking about your brand as an agency or how to putyourselves out there, think about what you really stand for. Maybe that's yourdefining character. Yes, Yep, Yep, being did you got to do itand you stick to it. I think too many agencies try to reinventthemselves all the time and then you become you don't. It's just so youwouldn't have your client reinvent themselves all the time. So why would you reinventyourself like that? Doesn't work, you know. I mean strength is builtover time, you know, and repetition, right, all those things. Soright, you know, I mean clients keep changing, but they're changingand your change, and then it's like whole what's going on here? Right, right, somebody's got to stand still. Right, yeah, right, right, another exactly stay relevant. But I will say you always have tostay relevant, you know, and I head of the curve in terms ofwhat's going on, because I think clients say, I went, client sayI feel like it's a fire hose coming at me with all the different digitalproperties everything, and now clients need us more than ever to help them sortthrough, you know, being smart about tactics and what they should be doingin that kind of thing. So, yeah, somebody who's brave enough tosort of make sure that they, when they're confronted by the truth, theyreact to it in some young, constructive and healthy to yes, so,and then they can't do that, I think as well. Are An announcedepartment. Well, and I always say, you know, the clients that where'smutual respect are always the best clients. You know, where you really respectthe client the client really respects you, are the best. Good things alwayscome out of then. We'll jump through hoops for clients like that.You know that where they we have mutual respect, but the ones that don't, it just makes it harder. I mean it does, because you know, we put it. We always say we punch above our weight and we'realways going to do the best we can, you know, and that's just whowe are. So yeah, well, this has been an awesome conversation.I love the way you've carried sort of your norse start through the entireagency and it is obviously paid big dividends for you, because you're still heardthirty years later, and that's a story...

...that not all an he's get totell. So well, I never rest on my laurels and I'm never youknow, it's just a said. Grit and persistence are at my core.So that's the other thing too. So, but I learned that from my parents, so that's a good thing. Yeah, also, well, sueChriscov from hey see, truth, is been a delight to talk to you. I think a lot of agency odors can really learn from sort of howyou build and grow in the agency and how you interact with your clients,and so I've learned a lot too. I want to thank you for takingthis time. Thank you. I really appreciate being on your show. Yeah, likewise, thanks for very time. Okay, we will see you onthe next episode of Innovative Agency. Thanks so much for joining us. Thelegal and creative agency protection system is a legal toolkit designed to help busy agencyleaders manage legal issues like client contracts, freelancer relationships, intellectual property, socialmedia complients and more. Get Resources and helpful content about agency legal issues nowat agency Legal Protectioncom. You've been listening to the Innovative Agency hosted by SharonTorik. Make sure you never miss an episode by subscribing to the show inyour favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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